Phil Wang talks comedy and identity ahead of his new book

July 21

Viv had the pleasure of speaking with Phil Wang, comedian and more recently author. To hear more about how Phil reflects on race, belonging and cultural cachet you can pre-order his book, Sidesplitter here.

Photo credit: Matt Stronge

Let’s start with where did you grow up, Phil?

I grew up in Kota Kinabalu, which is the capital of Sabah which is a Malaysian state that used to be British North Borneo. Technically I was born in the UK, but I don't exactly remember those first three formative weeks. My Mum was finishing off some studies and happened to have me at around the same time in Stoke-on-Trent, where she’s from and where her family was. But then three weeks after I was born, flew back to Malaysia with my dad until I was 16 [when I moved back to the UK].

How was that transition of you growing up in Malaysia and of moving to the UK? 

You know, it's funny.

“Growing up in Malaysia, I always thought ‘well, when I move to the UK, then I'll feel at home’, because in Malaysia I was white. Then when I moved to the UK, I realised how Asian I was. I also realised that I will probably never fit in anywhere. So I kind of gave up on that which is fine, really.”

I was thrown in the deep end though, because we moved to Bath and Bath is very white, very English. So I moved from an international school in Brunei, which had people from all over the world, to a private school in Bath, which was really white. So that was a bit of a gear shift.

More recently in my adulthood, I've felt more at ease with my Asian-ness and it's been great. Like becoming aware of various proactive Asian groups like your own and theatre groups and I've met some East Asians in Parliament. So I’ve felt more at ease with my place in society over the last few years.

I also became aware and I've performed for CAN (Chinese Arts Now) a few times. But, as always, Asians are very quiet, so you have to go looking for them.

Do you think that's the case? I've always thought about the ‘model minority’ myth and whether that is something that I subscribe to, whether Asians do fit that. That idea of us being quiet, however, has been perpetuated by white supremacy and the suppression of Asians. Even down to the idea that for you to come into our countries as a worker (let’s think about American history for example) and how in the 1960s, they allowed Asians to come into America, but only doctors, accountants, lawyers - people with good professions. That very much perpetuated the idea that came from white supremacy, that if you were studious, quiet and kept your head down, then you were a good model minority. Actually, however - and this is something that I think I’ve definitely seen in the past year - so many people are speaking up and kicking up a fuss and being less quiet. And I see people within the arts making incredible, emotive, political pieces and about fighting this stereotype of being quiet.

I don't agree with some of what you said. I don't think the model minority refers so much to the quietness as it does to the consistency of East Asian success in adoptive countries. I think the facts bear that out to be true. You know, East Asian, Chinese Brits are the highest earning group in the UK. They do the best in school and I think I've always seen the quietness as a positive thing.

I don't think quietness has to mean acceptance of bigotry or anything. And I know what you mean - we shouldn't characterise acquiescence as a model minority of virtue. I would agree with that. But with regards to the American case, far from only doctors and highly educated Chinese being allowed in - for a long time they weren't allowed to hold those skilled jobs in the US at all. 

If anything, it wasn't an act of white supremacy, as you say, but of insecurity, because China has, for the last couple of decades, posed an economic threat to these people. That's why they were capped out, not because they thought white people were better, but because they were afraid of Chinese potential.

So on those points, I would disagree with you. But I think I also understand and agree that acquiescence has become synonymous with model minority behaviour. And I agree that that should not be the case.

I think going back to the fact that you mentioned about being high achievers, we recently released a report with different charities and different organisations and we found that even though we are highly paid, that ESEA people only make up 0.27% of the most held positions in the UK. When you look at the studiousness of our students, we perform very well. But that’s usually because we're over assessed due to that stereotype of us being studious and good at maths etc. The knock-on effects of that are that we don't get the support when it comes to behavioural or mental health support because we’re seen to be doing well. So those things are true but also the wider context is that there are still issues within those things themselves.

I mean I've never worried about the East Asian diaspora in education or the business domains. In those cases, I feel we always take care of ourselves, but it's more in terms of visible representation that we are significantly lacking, so in the arts and in government for example. I guess also at the top of businesses as you said. 

Phil Wang’s new book - out in September

How do you think East and South East Asians are generally viewed in the arts circuit?

Well I don't think there’s even a view on us at all.

“We’ve always been so invisible that there isn't even a stereotype about East Asians in the arts, you know?”

I think that maybe if there is one it’s that they're crazy, wacky which I think that's a lot to do with the Japanese cultural output that the West is aware of (which is crazy and wacky) and Gangnam Style from Korea and Pineapple Pen. Anything which is East Asian entertainment that becomes known in the West is known usually for its novelty and its silliness. 

So yes, I think that would be the stereotype, that it's silly. I guess Gangnam Style, then. It’s the quintessential example, I think.

So in your career, have you seen a change in East and Southeast Asian representation, especially when you think about the comedy space, for example? Have you seen any changes at all?

Well, there are certainly more of us now than when I started. A guy from the East Asian community in the UK - a guy called Rick Kiesewetter - started a show called ‘Yellow Christmas’. So every year just the East Asian acts in London do a Christmas show. That's been really nice!

That's just with East and Southeast Asian performers, that’s brilliant. Going onto that then - what do you think about the term ‘yellow’? I know that’s a comedic play on the word, but… 

It is, yes. So, the colour words for race, beyond white and black, they’re a little nauseating.

So, for example, is the colour yellow. I like yellow, but I think our instincts say it’s not pleasant, it’s ‘yellowing’, there’s a sickliness about it, jaundice, and if you’re ‘yellow-bellied’, you’re a coward. White and black have their own very distinct positive qualities which I think everyone is instinctively aware of whereas yellow doesn't. 

So, I understand using it in a jokey sense but I don't like it so much. Unless it's a self deprecating joke, I might use it. But I've made no attempts to ‘reclaim it’ as such. I don't think it's really worth reclaiming.

I think I've come across some people who self-identify as yellow. And I would never want to police people who self identify, that's completely fine, but don't speak for the rest of us. 

So they’ve used phrases like ‘oh, yellow people…’ and I just feel like ‘no, this is really problematic’. If you start thinking that’s ok to say then that allows other people who are non- ESEA to start saying that as well.

Right. This is always a threat inherent within reclamation, in reclaiming a word. Black people have had the same problem with the N word in that it was very successfully reclaimed by Hip Hop but the unexpected effects of that is that it normalises it for everyone else to a degree. 

So in your career, what challenges have you faced when it came to your own racial identity? Have you ever experienced something where your skin colour or your ethnicity has been used against you, any microaggressions you’ve experienced?

Well I remember one time when I was starting out. I got a call to do a guest voice on a show, a comedy show for an act. And in the bit, this character called up a Chinese person on the phone and they wanted me to be the Chinese person. The lines were something like ‘you want buy DVD, you want buy DVD, I sell you DVD. I got a lot of DVD DVD, very good price.’ 

And I said ‘I don't want to do this. This is quite offensive and I don’t really want to do it.’ 

They were very apologetic, said they were so sorry and they didn’t see it that way. And a few days later I found out they had just got some white guy to do it anyway. 

But I think there might have been a point in my career, where I would have felt it was necessary to go along with it. Fortunately, I didn't. And nowadays, I certainly don't have to go ahead with anything I don't like, which is a good position to be in. 

Fortunately I’m not an actor either so I'm under less pressure to do the lines given to me. But overt? I think the term ‘microaggression’ has become so popular because overt racism is quite rare, especially in a largely liberal and tolerant country such as the UK. 

So I wouldn't say I have experienced anything overt. I've not had a producer call me ‘Ching Chong’ or whatever.

Not to your face! 

Not to my face, that's right. It seems to be a double-edged sword, my ethnicity. 

I think on the one hand, it makes me less familiar and that makes comedy difficult because it's about shared experience and I don't have that. I can't go on stage in the way someone like Mickey Flanagan can go on stage. There's this whole life and this whole culture that he can pick from - being an East-end Londoner, being a white Brit. And of course, there's nothing wrong with talking about those things - that can be very interesting, very funny. But he instantly has this rapport with his audience, this familiarity.

He can say words that they understand and make very specific references to growing up in parts of England or South England and knows all the slang that people instantly know, and all these characters and figures from everyday life that everyone relates to and understands. I don't have that, I've never had that, and I never will have that. So that's a challenge, but then on the other side of that blade is my uniqueness and my novelty, and I think I've benefited from that, if anything. 

I think producers and bookers you know, they want a bit of interest on a panel, a bit of flavour, then I'm a good bat. I don't resent that, I'm quite happy with that. Part of the reason I started doing it was to be that.

So does that motivate your work then, in terms of your identity? As in you’re not fitting whiteness in that way? Does that inform a lot of the work that you do? 

Yes, I think it informs a lot of my material. Because a lot of my material is about being part East-Asian and how that makes me different, talking about my mixed background and my parents. So if anything, I've always felt actually very lucky to have my ethnicity, doing what I do. If I didn't, I don't know if I'd be doing comedy at all. I don't think there'd be anything interesting enough for me to talk about.

So very much about honing your craft as opposed to the fame. So what have been the lowest and highest moments of your career thus far? 

People never ask me the lowest, which is a much more interesting question! 

I mean, a lot of time, the lowest I feel is just same as everyone - just those dark nights of the soul when you get into bed and your brain decides that's the perfect moment to re-live every mistake you've ever made and and every opportunity you let slip by and where you should be by now and where you aren’t and what other people are doing.

So those are the low points. I don't think there's ever been one great disappointment. There was a period where I was doing shows really badly and I was performing really badly and I didn't care and I was resenting having to be ‘good’, which was not good. But fortunately I came out of that.

The high points I've been fortunate enough to have a few.

“The first time I did Have I Got News For You was a real high point because I remember watching those shows in Malaysia. My Mum would bring it on VHS back from the UK and we’d watch some of Have I Got News For You because she loved it.”

So to sit on that panel and feel the panels behind me turning with the music was really great. After that show was when my mother finally stopped suggesting I'd do an MBA, just in case.

My first Live at the Apollo, the Netflix set I did where I flew over to Atlanta, Georgia to film. That felt really extravagant and cool.

Did you ask for anything in your rider that was really extravagant?

No, I never asked for anything. In America, my rider is only ever a cup of tea, a cup of tea and some water. There's almost nothing else I want!

I realised early on that food ruins me and makes me really bad. The worst TV appearance I've ever had was because I ate fried rice just before. I had eaten a full Wagamama Cha Han and I was terrible on Would I Lie To You? So I don't eat. I don't eat too much. It's just tea and water. 

But in America, I said in the trailer for the Netflix show ‘I'll just have some tea, please’, and because they're Americans, they said ‘Yeah!’ without asking any details. So when I came back to the trailer, there was a cardboard cup, another plastic cup of hot water, a cinnamon stick and a dried slice of orange. And a cup of milk.

Have you ever gigged in Malaysia before?

Yes, a couple of times. I did one in my hometown. The first night was a disaster, and the second night was quite good. On the first night, most of the audience was my family and the host was very brash - a really aggressive style of compere, which just didn't work. Also the audience just didn’t really get it and the other acts were unpleasant. 

The second night was a younger crowd, a little savvier. Then I was performing in Kuala Lumpur a year or so after that which was really great. That was at the end of a little Asian tour. I’d been to Hong Kong, Singapore and Malaysia and I'd accumulated some new jokes about Southeast Asia and I was able to do those.

That felt great to be able to tell jokes about Malaysians and Malaysia to Malaysians that I had written there. That was really great. So that's something I’d like to do - a show that's just for Malaysian people, but I don't know when I'll find the time to do that.

Oh, that'd be awesome to see. Finally, do you have any tips for any aspiring stand-up comedians? 

I think don't tell a joke you don't like. That sounds very obvious, but it's not always easy. Like even if it is boring, unoriginal but it works well enough. It'll pay off greatly in the future if you maintain your standards.

Rice or Noodles?

Noodles.

Don’t forget to check out Phil’s new book, which is out in September and join him on his UK tour. For more information check out his website, Twitter and Instagram.