A chat with Marvel’s Shang-Chi stars; Simu Liu, Fala Chen & director, Destin Daniel Cretton
*Squeeeaaaal* besea.n were invited to the UK premiere of Marvel’s latest action-packed film, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (released 3rd September 2021).
Kai, Karlie, Amy & Viv (sorry Charley and Mai-Anh!) strolled down the red (blue) carpet and experienced the film before its release, and it was EPIC! At a time when our community has been suffering, this film has felt like a big win for the ESEA representation and we’re so proud to have been there to see it all happening.
We got the opportunity to chat with actors of the film, Simu Liu, Fala Chen and director, Destin Daniel Cretton on everything ESEA representation. Also, have a guess whether they are all team rice or noodles...
Please let us know what you think, share on Instagram and tag us in using the hashtag #shangchi @besea.n
Kai, Karlie, Amy & Viv at the Shang-Chi UK premiere
Simu Liu
Amy
Hello, thanks for chatting with us. Simu. I'm Amy from besea.n in Britain's East and Southeast Asian Network. And this is my colleague...
Izzy
I'm Isabelle.
Amy
I'm so excited to talk to you too, so grateful. So after watching the film, I have to say I thought I had drama in my family, but that's nothing compared to what Shang-Chi has got going on with his family. I feel that this sense of belonging is a huge theme in the movie and watching Shang-Chi reconnect with his heritage is a journey. I think so many diaspora East and Southeast Asians have been going through, especially in the past year or so. I know you've been vocal about the rise in anti-East and Southeast Asian racism during the pandemic. It's been so good to see someone with your platform speaking out about it, by the way. So thank you. I want to ask, how do you feel about the timing of this movie in light of what's been happening?
Simu
I think when you read about all of these instances, all of these attacks, which are tragic, which are awful, and there's a real tendency to internalise that, even if you yourself are not somebody that was directly attacked, I think there's a sense that you internalise it. And it manifests as this sort of apologetic shame, this energy of feeling like you're Asian, this is something that you don't want in your life, and that brands you and marks you. And it's not so different from what we've been experiencing for generations - with the Chinese Exclusion Act with the internment of Japanese Americans in the Second World War. I don't know how familiar you are with those things, but obviously, they're more American centric, but they're a part of our history. And they're indicative of this thing called the ‘perpetual foreigner syndrome’, which is that no matter how long we have been in a country - Chinese - East Asian immigrants have have been in San Francisco and parts of the US for upwards of 150 years, but we're still seen as foreigners just because of our face - because of the way that the media portrays us. And that is also seen as lesser than and so I think so many diasporic Asians know that feeling of growing up, and feeling lesser than.
“So I think the timing of this movie is A) good and B) critical, because it is meeting that hate, and that internalised shame and negativity, with an equal and opposing and hopefully, greater force of joy and of celebration. You've both seen the movie, so you'll know that this movie is every bit of celebration of our culture, about the language, of our faces!”
I had the immense pleasure of playing opposites, so many talented Asian heroes and heroines that each have their own nuances and dimensionalities. And it's just so incredibly rare that we get that many opportunities to showcase these characters. And I really can't wait for the world to see it. I think it is the right time.
Izzy
For me, it's been really powerful to see you being so vocal for our communities, even from the UK. And to see that you've maintained this throughout your progression from shows like ‘Kim's Convenience’ to this majority Asian cast Marvel film. You've worked on a few things that focus on the East and Southeast Asian diaspora stories, where there any references to East and Southeast Asian cultures that you are glad to see included in the film - references that would resonate deeply with our communities?
Simu
So many. So many. I mean, starting from when we meet Shaun - Shaun and Katy in San Francisco, there's a little close up. When he takes off his shoes before he enters Katy's apartment. I think that was very, very important for us to show. It's such a subtle thing. But it is also so universal among our families that we definitely take our shoes off the home, whether it's a house or an apartment, they're definitely shoe free zones. And in order to keep the floors clean, of course, we not only take off the shoes, but oftentimes we have slippers that we then put on. The only thing that I think that's missing from our movies is a vacuum sealed remote control or remote control that's been saran wrapped - I would have loved to see that.
“Even in the way that we see two Asian American characters trying to figure out the pronunciation of ‘Shang-Chi’ on the aeroplane is so incredible because it really introduces to the world this notion that even though we are Asian or we have the faces, we all have very degrees of fluency with other languages. And we all have varying degrees of connection to our ancestral homeland. And so moments like that are really interesting.”
Even the moment, not much later, when Ronnie Chieng's character says, ‘Oh, that's okay, I speak ABC’. And so it also introduces this notion of American Born Chinese. And the idea that somebody who is ethnically Chinese, but raised in America can be very, very different than somebody who was raised in China. I mean it sounds very obvious to you and I, but for the rest of the world, maybe, maybe not so much.
Amy
I do find it really exciting that Shang-Chi will enter in its own right as a discourse in that sort of identity of being born in a different country for where people might expect you to. Speaking of that, I've heard it quoted that significant East and Southeast Asian representation in Western cinema tends to move in cycles. So there was Bruce Lee in the 70s and he was able to position himself as a hero, which was unusual for East Asian men in North America at that time. And then there was in the 90s, ‘Joy Luck Club’ - I believe that was the first all-Asian American cast in mainstream media and North American films. And then nearly three decades later, we see ‘Crazy Rich Asians’ closely followed by ‘Raya’, and now ‘Shang-Chi’. So what do you think needs to happen to continue this momentum, so that East and Southeast Asian people on screen are seen as just part of the norm and not an anomaly?
Simu
I think it's happening now. And it's very different than what was happening before, which is that in the case of Bruce Lee. In the case of Joy Luck Club, you had a lot of those decision makers that were not Asian, and and so even though those stories rightfully deserve to be celebrated, and the representation, rightfully deserves to be celebrated - when the decision makers are not Asian, and it's not in their best interest to continue to tell those stories, I think that's when you get instances where in the case of Bruce Lee, he had a show that he helped develop and was in line to star in and then was ultimately replaced by a white lead, who then played an Asian character. And the show of course, was ‘Kung Fu’. And full circle moment, is also in a way with Shang-Chi, the comic book character was initially based off of, so some problematic origins that were very happily modernised for this movie. But, in the case of ‘Joy Luck Club’ as well, directed by Wayne Wang, but was released by studio executives that were not Asian and in an environment where that critical mass had not yet been achieved, it was very hard to keep that momentum going.
“What I really, really love about what is happening now, is that we have more Asian and Asian American and diasporic Asian storytellers. And we are able to be the masters of our own narrative. So it's then that we are able to kind of get deep into the discourse of our lived experiences and really have those intimate conversations and that's what really makes the storytelling so rich.”
I mean, you mentioned ‘Crazy Rich Asians’, ‘Raya’ and ‘Shang-Chi' which are of course studio movies, but then you have movies like ‘The Farewell’ that are in these but are incredible. Your movies like ‘Minari’, you even have on Netflix things like ‘To All the Boys I've Loved Before’. There is a wealth of stories. Now, I'm not going to say that it's where we need to be but there's significantly more than there ever has been. And it does seem to be happening more and more. For us creatives, I think it's on us to continue to push, to tell our stories and to push to be in decision making positions where we can greenlight and we can storytell, from behind the camera and then for consumers, it's critical that we continue to support the projects that accurately represent us and portrays the way that we want to be portrayed.
Amy
That's great. I really do agree. I have a daughter so it's exciting that she can have a choice of movies and films that she can watch. Very quickly, last question for you. Are you team rice or team noodles?
Simu
Mmm, that's a really hard question. I love noodles and all forms of noodles, but I will say this...A meal is very, very hard for me if I don't have a bowl of rice. That's what I was raised on. There's something about that fluffy bowl of white steamed rice that just makes me feel at home. Ah, dammit - that means I'm team rice.
Amy & Izzy
Thank you so much, Simu.
Simu
I appreciate the conversation, guys. Thank you so much.
Fala Chen
Karlie
Hi Fala, I'm Karlie and I'm from besea.n, Britain's East and South East Asian Network. We're a grassroots organisation that was founded last year that campaigns for fairer representation in the UK, as well as platforming ESEA, or East and South East Asian, voices.
Firstly, congratulations on the film and on your performance, it’s so brilliant to meet you virtually. I vividly remember seeing you as Ching Ching [劉晴] in No Regrets [巾幗梟雄之義海豪情], which really left a mark on me - I really loved that show, it’s one of my favourites. And obviously, it did for a lot of other people because you won awards for that role. Following that, you've continued to grow, and you even moved back to the States. I wanted to ask, how did you, and have you, found that move? Was it difficult to go from previously being part of the mainstream, as a recognised actor in Hong Kong and in China, to now being somewhat marginalised as a woman of colour in the West, in Hollywood in particular?
Fala
I think I really wasn't thinking about working that much. When I decided to audition for drama schools, I really just wanted to find a more different environment - different play space to explore myself and my craft. I knew the programme would be very long - four years - so I wasn't really thinking too much about work beyond that because I was like, 'Oh, I'll be like, much older, and I'll be away from the industry for so long, no one will remember me! I'm just going to focus on my school.' It wasn't really part of the plan to start working in Hollywood but four years really passed by quickly, and that was like a really enjoyable experience, and I'm very, very glad I did it. And then after graduation one thing just happened after another, and I was just kind of going with the flow at the time. And then same with this film, it was just an offer that came to me that I was really not expecting at all. So as I say, it wasn't like an active choice, sometimes you just kind of have to give your best and follow your heart, and do what you love to do - and then things will happen.
Karlie
And you've really flourished in that move. I want to ask as well, with the timing of Shang-Chi’s making and release, which has been widely praised not only for its significant ESEA/AAPI representation, but also at a time of heightened trauma faced by our community. Now, you've been vocal about the discrimination faced by ESEAs globally, right from the start, and more recently, also publicly supported the #StopAsianHate movement. The film, the cast, everything has evoked profound feelings of unity and pride, of our shared heritage and commonalities across all East and South East Asians - how has this been for you?
Fala
For me, it's also such an important moment because not only what we've been seeing in the past year and a half, the rise of hate against Asians all around the world, but also I feel like it's just, long due in terms of our representation in the mainstream media, globally. So I am very honoured to be a part of this film; and I'm really glad that this is not just one film, a one time appearance, but I feel like especially for Shang-Chi - Simu's character - he will continue to go on in the Marvel Universe. And there will be many, many more characters and stories to be developed, even just within Marvel, but I think it will definitely open the door for many other films in the mainstream media for spaces for Asian representation.
Karlie
Exactly, and that visibility is so important, and I recognise that much of the film is in both Mandarin and English. As a fellow diaspora Chinese hearing this in a mainstream Hollywood/Western film, it really moved me because it meant that we no longer had to accommodate, or feel embarrassed about speaking in our mother tongues. If I recall correctly, all if not most of your dialogue was in Mandarin, right? Was this your choice or was it a collective decision?
Fala
Yes, it was a choice by the production, by the creatives. The original script was written in English but they always planned for the characters who came from Ta Lo, the village where my character came from, to speak Chinese. So it was very clear from the very beginning I had a conversation with Destin, our director, he specifically wanted to be very authentic. He wanted the characters to speak their own languages, to add that layer of culture and colour and depth to the characters - and I thought that was just the most rewarding experience. Especially as someone who speaks Chinese, I'm sure it added a lot of different nuance to the characters, and it feels very different. And I think it's the same probably, hopefully, for the rest of the audience in the world that we would normalise our language in the mainstream media as well. I think subtitles are great, if people get used to reading subtitles in films, you get to watch so many different types of films from all over the world, and not just in Chinese language but any language that will open your world up, in a cinema for you. So I think this is a great step that Marvel's taking.
Karlie
Definitely, and I have to say, just hearing you speaking Mandarin, it made me cry a couple of times, it was so lovely. And needless to say, this is going to have an immense impact on ESEA kids all around the world today, especially those with a Chinese background - and hopefully for many generations to come - because not only will they be able to watch it with their friends, and their parents and relatives, but they'll also be able to see themselves. So what do you hope Shang-Chi will inspire?
Fala
Just like you said, I hope it not only inspires us but it will inspire generations to come, hopefully this will become a classic. I just personally had a daughter myself and I'm so glad she will grow up to see some superheroes and heroines who look like her, and maybe even she will dress up like one of the characters - I'm planning on dress her up for Halloween. Yeah, that would be really cute.
“I hope [the film] not only inspires us but it will inspire generations to come, hopefully this will become a classic. I just personally had a daughter myself and I’m so glad she will grow up to see some superheroes and heroines who look like her,”
Karlie
That’s super. Going forward, what other ESEA narratives would you like to see being showcased on screen?
Fala
Oh, gosh, like anything! I hope, first of all for our film, I feel like this is not just a one-off independent origin story but it will open that whole world to the audience, and we'll see more expanded stories for each character. Selfishly, obviously, I hope my character will get some kind of comeback for other Marvel films, and I hope to not only appear in like, Ta Lo and you know, our world, but also maybe we can travel space and time to other spaces, as well to interact with other Marvel superheroes. That would be really, really exciting.
Karlie
And lastly, one final question: rice or noodles.
Fala
Rice, rice.
Karlie
Yes! Another (in Cantonese) rice bucket!
Fala
I'm from the South of China, so yeah, definitely rice.
Karlie
Thank you so much. If you could allow me to speak in Cantonese: 'I'm so happy I got to meet you'.
Fala
(in Cantonese) 'Me too. Thank you for your support.’
Destin Daniel Cretton
Viv
Hi Destin! If you saw yesterday if you saw a group of giggling girls in the gala last night shouting ‘Destin!’ that was us.
Destin
You're a part of the giggling group.
Viv
Yeah. We were really excited.
Destin
Who were you there with? Just friends?
Viv
I was there as part of besea.n, which is Britain's East and Southeast Asian network. So we're essentially six Angry Asian women who formed last year as a charitable organisation to stop Asian hate. So we work with the government, we got a petition to Parliament and to basically stop them from depicting East and Southeast Asian people in COVID related media. So it's really nice that we get perks like this in light of racism to actually meet people like you.
Destin
Oh that sounds like an amazing thing you guys are doing!
Viv
Oh, thank you so much. So, as a Northerner I kind of want to speak in a Liverpudlian accent for the lols as homage to Ben Kingsley in the film, which I just found was hilarious.
Destin
Are you from the Liverpool area?
Viv
I'm from Warrington, so I can easily slip into a Liverpudlian accent *Viv does an awkward Liverpudlian accent* Ya know, so it was really great to see.
So, the film was epic. It was really emotional. And I just wanted to personally say ‘thank you’ to you for bringing this into our lives. Because as a British Chinese person, it just means so much to me. And I was tearing apart so many moments in the film. It's really hard to ignore that with Shang-Chi, it's coming out against the backdrop of the global Stop Asian Hate movement. What do you think this type of representation means during a time when our community is globally affected for people in the Asian diaspora?
Destin
The last movie I did was with Bryan Stevenson, who is an incredible public defence attorney and activist in the States. And one of the things that stuck with me that he told me was that you can't ever understand a person or a problem unless you allow yourself to get very close to it. And I do think that one of the unfortunate reasons for racism and hate is just ignorance. When you see a person, you're just projecting this stereotype or preconceived idea on who they are just by the way that they look. And one of the things that we hope for this movie is that it introduces you to so many different personalities and and, and characters that are so vastly different from different areas of the world - with their own different cultural backgrounds. But they all look like us. And I hope that it's more difficult for people who watch this movie to carry with them this terrible idea that all Asians are the same. I hope that they also feel surprised with how much they can relate to each of the characters in our movie, and that we do share a lot of the same emotions, the same family, drama, the same insecurities and hopes and dreams.
“I hope that [people] also feel surprised with how much they can relate to each of the characters in our movie, and that we do share a lot of the same emotions, the same family, drama, the same insecurities and hopes and dreams.
”
Viv
I wanted to get into that with the film. I think it speaks to the Confucian idea of filial piety that we must serve our parents and elders, did you find that you can relate to this experience? And did you draw from any personal family experience into your directing?
Destin
Yeah, I mean, I think that's just pretty common, not only not only in our community, but it's a pretty common conflict that we go through when we're in our 20s and 30s. We tend to push away from our parents for a time and then we start to hopefully find a balance. I mean, the truth is, we are who we are because of everything that came before whether it's good or bad or painful and there is a lot of truth to us standing here and being able to have this conversation and these types of pursuits and jobs because of how hard our parents did work and the generations that came before us to get us here. So I think Shang-Chi (played by Simu Liu) is going through that. That balance of choosing his own path but also finding respect for those who came before him.
Viv
Love that answer. Destin, last question. Team rice or team noodles. Which one are you? There is a right answer here.
Destin
I'm typically always team noodle - that's my team.
Viv
Yes! *Viv celebrates* That’s on record forever! Thank you so much Destin you’re a legend!
Watch Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings in cinemas from the 3rd September 2021.